LIVE FIRE TRAINING? Get’m in There and DO WHAT?
“LIVE” fire training has been around for years and years-and in most cases-it makes a very positive difference in making sure firefighters get realistic, hands on and effective training.
But unfortunately, in some cases “fire training out of control” has lead to serious injuries and tragically, the deaths of several firefighters, instructors and officers. Even now, in the year 2006-there are some in fire leadership roles that feel that during training “if a firefighter doesn’t get burned, or are afraid to get burned, they aren’t doing their job…”
Things that make you go Hmmmm…
Join Radio@Firehouse.Com Through The Smoke host Deputy Chief Billy Goldfeder and his guests, Chief David Casey-Florida State Fire College, Chief Dave Daniels-Chair of the IAFC Safety, Health and Survival Section and Chief Tim Sendelbach, President of ISFSI for a very serious discussion of interest to ALL FIREFIGHTERS on the good, the bad and the ugly issues, standards and latest facts related to LIVE FIRE TRAINING.
Related Links:
• NIOSH Document
• Firefighters Burned During Training Newspaper Article
• Lairdsville NY Training LODD Tragedy
• Greenwood, DE Training LODD Tragedy
• National Firefighter Near Miss Reporting System
• Firefighter Close Calls
Reports from the Florida State Fire College:
• Investigation - SFM - Flite-Rite CS Projectiles as a Source of Ignition (Apr 26, 05)
• Investigation - BFST - Firefighter Injury During Live Fire Training (Feb 18, 04)
• Investigation - BFST - Firefighter Death During Training Fire Port Everglades (Aug 8, 03)
• Investigation - BFST - Firefighter Deaths During a Training Fire (Jul 30, 2002)
• Investigation - BFAI - Osceola County Firefighters’ Death Report (Jul 30, 2002)
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I appreciate the training discussion, as a Chief that came up through the department ranks as a firefighter to ultimately my position now, I do not wish being burnt on any of my firefighters in training or under any circumstances. I am currently fighting a battle of my own with one my board members who doesn’t think that we can afford to match a FEMA grant for a live-burn trainer. I don’t think that we can afford not to get this if it happens. My most important considerations are for my crews safety first and foremost.
As for the staffing situation, I have always had the policy that if a lone firefighter is the only one at the station he or she is to repage our department as well as page the next available department for immediate response. The only trucks that are allowed to leave the station with less than one man are tankers that leave after the initial response has responded.
I appreciate your webcasts, you seem to address the most important issues that we all face today with the firefighters safety in mind.
Thank’s,Keith
First I would like to thank you for focusing attention on the critical issue of firefighter injuries and fatalities during live fire training. However, there is a critical point that did not come out in your discussion.
I reviewed reports of firefighter fatalities during live fire training that have occured over a 30 year period as part of research for the health and safety chapter in 3D Firefighting: Training, Techniques and Tactics. One common element in fatalities due to rapid fire progress was the instructors lack of knowledge regarding fire behavior. None of thse individuals would have done what they did if they could have foreseen the outcome. This is also reflected in the increasing rate of fatalities due to traumatic cause during structural firefighting as reported by Rita Fahy of the NFPA.
While standards and regulations are an important element in firefighter safety, we continue to see increasing firefighter injuries and fatalities during live fire training since the establishment of NFPA 1403 in 1986. Instructor qualification requirements such as those established in Florida are a step in the right direction. However, we must take steps to ensure that these programs develop a solid understanding of fire development and the influence of tactical operations on the fire. These critical issues have been recognized in Sweden and the UK for some time and provide an excellent starting point for examining the critical competencies required for live fire instructors.
GREAT TOPIC and DISCUSSION!
Indiana has an Indiana Firefighter Special Training Task Force http://www.Indianafirefighter.com that has been working hard over the past two years for an increase in firefighter training standards, to meet the national minimum training standards.
Great opposition against the increased standards has come from IVFA. Members were told that it would be the end of the volunteer fire service. IVFA has stated that the volunteers will not tolerate additional standards, because of to must time involvements.
The task force did a study of all 50 states prior to Florida changing firefighter training requirements this report is posted on the above website.
Many of us are working hard to protect each other from situations that recently occurred. Many of use became outraged by the chief?s comments!
NFPA 1001, NFPA 1403, anything less is NEGULANCE!
The problem with injurys related fire fighters injured or burned during training is ten fold.when firefighters get burned in training it is putting nails in the coffin of live fire training.It makes it harder to get support for live training. In my town we build a live fire traing structure. it is a 20: sea container. it was easier to build the trailer and make all the safty features we put into play on this trailer. we wrote a trhree page s.o.g for conducting a live fire burn in this trailer. we have over six positions that must be filled that are diectlt invovle dwith the fire. and another six command positions. I know our trailer is saffer to operate in than working in a real fire senerio. the fire is at the end of the trailer 15 feet from the fire the trailer is not air tight. it is not for use with new fire fighters unless they have been thru and organized training program.the fire fighters working with the traing are 3 feet from the two trailer door the door cannot be latch and open if somone just leans on the door.one hand line is in the fire for the fire tender and two pumps are ready on scean.
People are still saying that this unit is not safe. This is from fire training the had no s.o.g.s and people have been hurt or killed during thease trainings.
We need live fire training for every fire fighter every were. A fire fighter getting injured during training is not excepable to get burned is criminal.
The fire service needs commonsence standards for live fire training the NFP standars are very complicated to read.A certified live fire traing inspector would not be a bad idea he could inspect training faciitys and old building used prior to the live fire training. The could review the s.o.g.s too make sure all is covers for the situation.
In my town we have tried to find somone that would give the ok for our structure.No one will commit to the resonsability.
Great job on the last two episodes. Had the great joy of meeting and hanging with Chief Downey, he will be missed tremendously. His boys are class acts!
The new episode on live training should be broadcasts to all facilities in the entire world to light up everyone on this very important topic. I worked next door from Chief Casey years ago and now have the pleasure of his guidance at the top level. He is doing a great job, along with your panel. Great show and keep up the great work Chief. It is appreciated by more than your can imagine.
Stay Well!
very interesting discussion about fire fighter training….firefighters (the kids) need to see it…they also need to know when to leave. It must be real and when dealing with real it gets tough. I’ve shown up for a burn class….8 hour class…..first time i’ve seen the people..the people I teach with, the arsonist become a safety person…stand back look at the big picture
I had a nice fire burning in a little farm house….the back up man on the attack crew had a problem with his air pack….they just bought them….
so, I got to remove him from the fire…..the instructor with the nozzle man didn’t see it
this will sound bad, but,thowing someone on the porch (and then having a briefing
Dear Sirs:
I heard on your broadcast today referrence “Fire Police”. Can you direct me to a location where I can find SOP’s pertaining to the forming of and running of a Frie Police company.
how do i listen to brodcasts… while on the road. do you have the service thru satelite radio or an AM or FM station
You can download the broadcasts to your IPOD or MP3 player.
Satellite…someday
WebTeam
Tom:
For info on Fire-Police, contact Steve Austin at:
steveaustin@earthlink.net
All:
Thanks for the kind remarks-take care,
BillyG
I am a vary big supporter of Live Fire Training, but the absolute number one thing is “SAFETY”. Following NFPA 1403, and local SOP’s are vary inmportant. With live fire training you have qualified or experiensed personel in charge, and those 4 or more personel are always checking eachothers work and progress. The last thing I ever want to see is someone injured or hurt when it comes to training, becuse we are in the buisness of helping!
Firefighters are there to learn and get better at there jobs when doing these trainings. Instructors should always oversee what the crews are doing, and also be expiensed to know what is going to happen next in these trainings.
I can not express this enough, when doing these training every precaution needs to take pleace becuse of the dangerous scenario. All live fire trainings need to be respected, just as much as we would respect the unexpected.
These trainings are some of the most important that we can get, and we should work on continuing these trainings in a SAFE and appropreate way!
Great informative episode, my prays go out to all the firefighter family that have suffered due to careless instruction of firefighter in liver burn situations. I hope the instructor that told the FL candidates to leave their gear at the gate if they didn?t perform well doesn?t spend a moment of his life without thinking of how inappropriate his actions were. Are you going to bring up the ?Brawl? that occurred in Maryland (I think it was Maryland)? Prime example of the career/volunteer feud you talked about in your closing remarks. Where is the brotherhood these days?
The old battle cry”make it hot for them” is not the goal of live burns.This is a thinking mans game. Fundamentals Fundamentals.Basic engine ops ,truck ops are essental. Make em think!!!!!!
As i have read in all the articles there is good and bad in live fire training.
I have been in the fire service for 30 years and believe me a lot has changed in that time. I am also a state instructor for the state I have been fortunate to be part of many burns in several communities.
The first thing we must remember this is only training and “SAFETY” is the thing we must never forget. We have NFPA 1403 guide lines to follow we have always followed them closely and have had very good results some very positive. Today fire service is changing every day and i feel it is a good tool to continue to train our new members comming on local departments.
I understand trailers and burn buildings have a lot to offer but the real thing is the real thing it gives you confidence to do the job and not be afraid of what is comming or going to happen .
You notice more and see more in the real world.
As i close this letter to you know when enough is enough keep safety in mind all the time.
Thanks
Mark T. Lemay
Fire fighter burns are absolutely unaccecptable. This applies to all aspects, training and the “real” fireground. From the Industrial side, we were fortunate several years ago to live with our brothers in Sweden and learn (again-but with great emphasis) the physics and charactics of fire. These lessons are incorporated into our everyday operations and help to ensure that there are no injuries. Live fire training will continue to be needed for the forseeable future but the training can be just as good if not better than what some people call “training and burning”.
i m a fireman in china
i need know more knowledge
question do you know if it is a requirement for a fire officer in the state of ny to have live fire or conduction of live fire to hold an office
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